(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]HA[9]KM[0.50]TM[900]
PW[MyungWan]PB[MoGoTiTan]DT[2008-08-07]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[MoGoTiTan [-\]: GTP Engine for MoGoTiTan (black): MoGo version 3.0.0: I'll resign if you win and playing until you pass if I win. If you passed and I did not, it often means that the status of some stones are not clear enough for me (I want to be sure we will agree on dead stones). Clarify them. Maybe I am losing, but have not enough time to be sure I should resign. In this case play until the end :'( (very rare cases)
]RE[B+3.50]
;B[dd]BL[899.599]
;B[dj]BL[899.356]
;B[dp]BL[899.102]
;B[pd]BL[898.889]
;B[pj]BL[898.665]
;B[pp]BL[898.457]
;B[jd]BL[898.193]
;B[jp]BL[897.984]
;B[jj]BL[897.775]
;W[]WL[896.57]C[USGO15 [-\]: There should be three passes this time
]
;B[jn]BL[893.821]
;W[]WL[894.749]
;B[nd]BL[887.745]
;W[]WL[893.631]
;B[ok]BL[883.365]C[Chaos00o [8k\]: hahahahaha XD
heegaard [4k\]: so far so good
Sakae [-\]: WTFG=!
Uizado [-\]: o_O
ketchup [6k\]: strong..
]
;W[qm]WL[883.937]C[og [9k\]: p9, strong move
takayanagi [4d\]: 12 stones?
chrono3450 [1d\]: lol
Astrae [3d\]: interesting
heegaard [4k\]: mogo ownng
]
;B[om]BL[878.79]
;W[nq]WL[881.1]C[Sakae [-\]: oh well I cant whine..
Capsule [3d\]: b winning
ketchup [6k\]: i'd fear playing this..
Sakae [-\]: I did a kosumi in my handi game..
]
;B[np]BL[869.881]C[chrono3450 [1d\]: hmm B has the edge at the moment
USGO15 [-\]: May people have got up and walked away from the game
]
;W[mp]WL[874.606]C[heegaard [4k\]: already korigatachi
USGO15 [-\]: Many
]
;B[no]BL[864.885]
;W[qq]WL[871.959]C[og [9k\]: why is that, usgo?
]
;B[oq]BL[855.28]
;W[qp]WL[870.711]C[Sakae [-\]: dissappiont ment!
NPcomplete [5k\]: they surely want to see the 1 hour game :)
]
;B[mq]BL[848.355]C[kuikentje [5k\]: maybe they'll come back for the final game
]
;W[dg]WL[865.302]C[Sakae [-\]: I will not leave mogos side, I know he's talented!
kuikentje [5k\]: this one doesn't matter too much anymore
runts [3d\]: strong
]
;B[fi]BL[842.632]C[weiqidevil [-\]: will this handicap still be right, when they play a longer game?
]
;W[dm]WL[862.714]C[Sakae [-\]: I can sense it! :>
lemurov [-\]: wow
]
;B[fm]BL[836.65]C[lemurov [-\]: b's looking good
Hagios [4k\]: Final game will be 1 hour?
sigmundur [4k\]: is there a competition for computer-aided playing? That is, you could use any means to produce a move
]
;W[en]WL[856.992]
;B[fn]BL[830.694]
;W[eo]WL[855.562]C[NPcomplete [5k\]: 9 handi for 1 hour should be the right handi i hope
ketchup [6k\]: mogo really loves influence..
promon: will there be a lecture on the making of mogo at the Congress?
]
;B[fo]BL[824.279]
;W[ep]WL[854.528]C[chrono3450 [1d\]: omggomgomgg
kuikentje [5k\]: lol
hollywood [3k\]: mogotitan what rank is?
]
;B[ef]BL[817.752]C[chrono3450 [1d\]: weaksauce....
ahmadr [10k\]: sigmundur - there are pure-computer tournaments. Where programs play programs. 
]
;W[hd]WL[851.365]C[Sakae [-\]: is the bot stronger than the programmer?
Tsuijin [1d\]: black thinks bottom left is a joseki
patrickb [-\]: This is the lecture on the destruction of MoGo...
]
;B[eg]BL[811.117]C[SadShape [1k\]: same sequence that in the last game...$
]
;W[cd]WL[848.853]C[ketchup [6k\]: sakae, highly possible lol
]
;B[cc]BL[804.159]
;W[dc]WL[842.868]C[promon: :-) maybe, but...
]
;B[ec]BL[796.966]
;W[db]WL[841.04]C[certo [1k\]: why so few handicap?
Sakae [-\]: no wonder!
]
;B[eb]BL[789.637]C[certo [1k\]: why not like 20
]
;W[cb]WL[839.039]C[Sakae [-\]: the algorithm is incorrect in that case
]
;B[bc]BL[781.947]C[ketchup [6k\]: ?
]
;W[bb]WL[837.608]C[Millard [17k\]: cuz its just the proliminaries
gromgull [?\]: sigmundur: I know one guy did an experiment on kgs, he played with gnugo, but would occasionally override gnugo and make "the better choice" - he was about 12k, and with gnugo he played way better than himself and than gnugo
]
;B[bd]BL[774.091]C[sigmundur [4k\]: algorithm is general, doesn't have much to do with go
]
;W[ce]WL[827.792]C[Kashuu [1k\]: looking ok for black in this corner fight
]
;B[de]BL[766.039]
;W[cf]WL[825.4]C[Kashuu [1k\]: nevermind!!!
promon: i mean are the programmers on site, or controlling the machine remotely?
lemurov [-\]: I bet mogo is drunk. or its programmer was
]
;B[dh]BL[757.695]C[Sakae [-\]: ehm...
IanO: gromgull: that is called a 'dreihirn'
]
;W[fd]WL[821.788]C[whatisgo [1k\]: next game with 20 stones...
PStillman [2k\]: тое ещщ пщщв, Каыргг
]
;B[ed]BL[749.234]C[Sakae [-\]: a compute player needs an algorithim
]
;W[md]WL[820.081]C[Sagen [15k?\]: :D
Iceborg [6k\]: heh, poor chess players, they stand no chance to bots
sigmundur [4k\]: gromgull: that's what I mean. A VR helmet interface for pros, for example... you look at a spot and the computer would show the trivial continuations
Escapist [6k\]: I want to see 26 stones
Escapist [6k\]: lol
PStillman [2k\]: not too good, Kashuu
]
;B[me]BL[740.411]C[Singer [10k\]: Is the the PC v pro game?
]
;W[nc]WL[814.309]C[lemurov [-\]: wanna see 40 ones
Kosai [2k\]: yes
Sakae [-\]: yeah handicaped game
Kashuu [1k\]: not after D15 PStillman :D
]
;B[ld]BL[731.463]C[pasky [1k\]: singer: isn't it the 3000 PC vs pro game?
]
;W[mc]WL[812.464]C[zathras [4d\]: They did 25 stones a few years ago
Sakae [-\]: main game will behin after this
USGO15 [-\]: This is the third and final testing game of MyungWan Kim 8P vs MoGo
]
;B[lc]BL[722.322]
;W[od]WL[810.57]C[aburry [4k\]: PC? you know that stands for "personal computer", right?
zathras [4d\]: Janice Kim won :-)
Sakae [-\]: after*
]
;B[oe]BL[712.996]
;W[ne]WL[808.397]C[sigmundur [4k\]: wasn't there supposed to be some more power from Holland coming to back up?
cormorant [13k?\]: do you feel you have enough handi?
Sakae [-\]: it's 300 PCs in one ;)
]
;B[nf]BL[703.34]
;W[lb]WL[807.004]C[cormorant [13k?\]: seems like we did not find the proper limit
pasky [1k\]: ah, 300
USGO15 [-\]: After this game the pro will play against MoGo in a 1 hour per player game
Sakae [-\]: and they just added a 0 because it looked cooler
Millard [17k\]: lets get 300 macs
pasky [1k\]: i was wondering 3000 is a bit too much
]
;B[nd]BL[693.472]C[pasky [1k\]: lol
Millard [17k\]: they should do it
Celila [-\]: 3200*
]
;W[oc]WL[801.106]C[Pinguschaf [-\]: b played good move :)
jhouse [3k\]: USGO, how many handicap?
sigmundur [4k\]: 3000 isn't much at all  x:
]
;B[kb]BL[683.288]C[runts [3d\]: 13
]
;W[pc]WL[799.284]C[Sakae [-\]: 12?
runts [3d\]: 12
Sagen [15k?\]: 12
ahmadr [10k\]: I think black is ahead at the moment
SadShape [1k\]: this shape was in the other game too: joseki for the side  for mogo^^
]
;B[mb]BL[672.946]
;W[pe]WL[797.334]C[Singer [10k\]: It takes quite a time to overcome nine stones!
]
;B[qd]BL[662.475]C[mlnmiles [1d\]: Ahmadr, nice counting
]
;W[qc]WL[794.305]C[mlnmiles [1d\]: :)
ahmadr [10k\]: lol
BattousaiX [-\]: ahmadr: in handicap games black is ahead for a while...
]
;B[pf]BL[651.538]C[rillig [2k\]: if black would only play more solidly, as required in handicap games ...
]
;W[qe]WL[792.872]C[Pinguschaf [-\]: wow
ahmadr [10k\]: <_< I know  - i was only joking around
Pinguschaf [-\]: very good by black
markboon [?\]: I think B lost a while ago
]
;B[rd]BL[640.537]C[patrickb [-\]: White's first move created a weak group....
]
;W[rf]WL[791.209]C[patrickb [-\]: 12 of them, in this game, in fact
mlnmiles [1d\]: ah...
Sagen [15k?\]: Seems like white is destroying black (again...)
]
;B[qf]BL[629.422]
;W[re]WL[789.999]C[PStillman [2k\]: somehow it seems that mogo thinks that capturing a stone on the 2nd line and the 4th one are miai
Pinguschaf [-\]: r16 and s16 are indeed tesujis :)
mlnmiles [1d\]: t16 disappointing...
zathras [4d\]: b is still ahead
]
;B[rg]BL[618.072]
;W[rc]WL[788.553]C[Pinguschaf [-\]: t16 is good
ketchup [6k\]: g14
slinky [-\]: how much handi is this?
]
;B[be]BL[606.737]C[certo [1k\]: b needs to learn about corners -> sides -> center
Nouli [-\]: T15 !
sixsix [-\]: t16 is a good move
Nouli [-\]: xD
]
;W[bf]WL[785.154]C[hannes101 [8k\]: 12
pasky [1k\]: hmm
sixsix [-\]: oops i mean s16 :p
]
;B[cg]BL[595.275]
;W[bg]WL[783.788]C[pasky [1k\]: for the long game I could run my mogo in parallel again
Pinguschaf [-\]: will be funny to see white living inside there
]
;B[df]BL[583.888]
;W[bh]WL[781.777]C[nasnad [1d?\]: b doesnt work that way
pasky [1k\]: to see the percentages
]
;B[hg]BL[572.419]C[chrono3450 [1d\]: dear god
]
;W[nr]WL[773.343]C[Pinguschaf [-\]: hard to tell whether h13 is good or not :)
chrono3450 [1d\]: it's frustrating to see this type of play when the bots on KGS play even better...
]
;B[or]BL[560.865]
;W[lq]WL[772.133]C[ahmadr [10k\]: MoGo's heuristic tries to lead by a small margin - so wheen given such a huge lead in a handicap game i'd bet it performs artificially worse - hence why we see so much pure-ifnluence play that doesn't pan out. Though why it makes dead groups like B17 and S16 is beyond me.
jhouse [3k\]: h13 feels like a safety play :)
]
;B[mr]BL[549.249]
;W[lr]WL[771.031]C[zathras [4d\]: is white never going to enter the center?
Enraiha [8k\]: lol but the bots on kgs don't exactly go against 8p's
]
;B[ns]BL[537.719]C[Singer [10k\]: Why program it to make a small win?
]
;W[iq]WL[770.132]C[sixsix [-\]: it doesn't *try* to lead by less, but it will take a safe small lead over a large one, even if the small one is only slightly safer
]
;B[jq]BL[526.177]C[Sakae [-\]: to adept to hte opponents level
]
;W[jr]WL[768.042]C[ahmadr [10k\]: Because it allows you to play safer moves
ketchup [6k\]: can tenuki the max amount that way singer
IanO: maybe MoGo should think it has a Komi of say.... -100pts as well as the handicap?
chrono3450 [1d\]: doesn't matter - you can tell the quality of the moves being played, regardless of the opponent
jhouse [3k\]: it isn't really programmed for a small win, it just doesn't care about a big win :)
Sakae [-\]: might be for teaching purpose
]
;B[kr]BL[514.713]C[Articuno [-\]: pasky, you should do that
lemurov [-\]: he can make eyes at the center easy I guess
ahmadr [10k\]: no - sixsix said it right
lemurov [-\]: using any moment
]
;W[hr]WL[760.644]
;B[kq]BL[503.297]C[trumpet [3k\]: MoGo is just luring the pro into overconfidence, you'll see real strength in the next game ;)
]
;W[ho]WL[756.599]C[Millard [17k\]: lol
Iceborg [6k\]: lol
Sagen [15k?\]: ^^
certo [1k\]: lol
jtn [6k\]: we better =)
Singer [10k\]: How many are they playing?
]
;B[hn]BL[491.871]C[sigmundur [4k\]: last
]
;W[ek]WL[752.729]C[chrono3450 [1d\]: this is 2nd to last
pasky [1k\]: articuno: I just need to figure out if gogui lets me interface bot running on remote machine
certo [1k\]: trumpet, when computers get that smart, i quit
jhouse [3k\]: this is 3rd of 3 blitz games
]
;B[el]BL[480.37]C[IanO: yeah, on the fourth game they start taking bets
chrono3450 [1d\]: their next and final game will be 1 hour SD
]
;W[dk]WL[747.349]C[ahmadr [10k\]: That would be a good idea, chrono. If it was programmed to believe it was way behind form the beginning, rather than just straight-evaluating.
teytaud [-\]: it is supposed to be 5 blitz games 
og [9k\]: pasky, pass it a program which talks to another program remotely :)
kuikentje [5k\]: doesn't have to be the computer certo, might as well be the programmer ;)
]
;B[fk]BL[468.98]
;W[qg]WL[741.638]C[Yxven [2k\]: Why certo?
]
;B[pg]BL[457.639]
;W[qh]WL[740.146]C[trumpet [3k\]: not s12 pls
ahmadr [10k\]: You surely noticed in the last game that toward the end it started trying really aggressive strategies when it was so far behind - if it only did that earlier on when it had a chance to make those work,...
]
;B[ph]BL[446.421]
;W[io]WL[737.605]
;B[dl]BL[435.565]
;W[in]WL[734.808]C[kuikentje [5k\]: it does that when it is desperate, ahmadr
sigmundur [4k\]: c3 not big enough?  q:
]
;B[im]BL[425.055]
;W[jo]WL[733.51]C[Fatality [7k\]: mogo works fine with SE :D
kuikentje [5k\]: then it tries things that can never work
Nouli [-\]: ahaha
ahmadr [10k\]: right - so if it thought it had a handicap early on of -100 points, even when it didn't.
]
;B[lp]BL[414.867]C[Nouli [-\]: it'll work
]
;W[kn]WL[731.05]C[promon: ahmadr, are you among the programmers of mogo? (if you don't mind revealing this...)
]
;B[jm]BL[404.839]
;W[ko]WL[729.898]C[ahmadr [10k\]: no - not at all
sigmundur [4k\]: Fatality: monte carlo doesn't use SE  /:  hopefully
sigmundur [4k\]: monte carlo is SE  (:
]
;B[ck]BL[395.027]C[sixsix [-\]: ah, but ahmdar, that would lead to the opposite problem... it would take risks when i tdidn't need to
ahmadr [10k\]: but i am into AI and read up on go programming in general, crazystone and mogo in specific.
pasky [1k\]: og: like ssh ;)
]
;W[lo]WL[715.64]C[Singer [10k\]: Mogo seems to think D9 is pretty big...
trumpet [3k\]: there goes the center...
promon: i see
ahmadr [10k\]: Clearly it needs to take more risks than it is now
]
;B[mo]BL[385.318]
;W[ll]WL[714.597]C[ketchup [6k\]: m5 really worth that much?
Francisco [3d\]: it is pretty big
]
;B[km]BL[375.932]
;W[lm]WL[713.328]C[ahmadr [10k\]: rather than trying for a huge center and allowing itself to be reduced so easily.
Sakae [-\]: wel..
SadShape [1k\]: m5 was just trick play i think
Singer [10k\]: Is there a mogo bot that plays on KGS?
]
;B[fp]BL[366.948]C[pasky [1k\]: whoa, quite some cpu time here... :) Jul25 36958:27 ./mogo
ahmadr [10k\]: There are a few
Sakae [-\]: ti's getting crushed even though it plays "safe"
telchar [-\]: mogobot1 and 2
Torrent [2d\]: it's not about taking risks, is about being able to read deeper.
pasky [1k\]: singer: yes; there's a suite of mogo bots in the computer go room and czechbot which plays ranked games
promon: how does it assess risk, if indeed monte carlo is the driving force, so to speak?
aburry [4k\]: 4 corners and access to the centre. w must be relieved ;)
Yoan [10k\]: everyone of us would be crushed
Rayna [8k?\]: yes M5 was hoping black would anwer for M8 follow-up, but B should prob ignore
jhouse [3k\]: promon, monte carlo is the risk
telchar [-\]: it just don't care giving up points as long as it wins
lemurov [-\]: perfect move
runts [3d\]: you wouldn't be taking 12 stones against this
promon: hehe
]
;W[eq]WL[658.806]C[nasnad [1d?\]: it calcs win% 
markboon [?\]: Did they stop?
]
;B[fq]BL[358.055]C[royalty [3d\]: g3...
]
;W[fr]WL[657.086]C[cormorant [13k?\]: calcs win guess
Sakae [-\]: having it trying for a certain point is a bad thing
]
;B[lj]BL[349.313]C[pasky [1k\]: promon: "risk" means high percentage of moves leads to loss
Sakae [-\]: it will give away points untill it's even
GlebD [2d\]: myungwan will win on time XD
Sakae [-\]: and then it'll try
ketchup [6k\]: r9
sigmundur [4k\]: more or less; for yose there might be branch-n-bound crunching?
]
;W[bn]WL[645.189]C[kuikentje [5k\]: maybe Yoan, but I surely wouldn't have allowed it to intrude my center like that
zathras [4d\]: getting close now
ketchup [6k\]: hmm
]
;B[ip]BL[340.833]
;W[hp]WL[642.905]C[lemurov [-\]: wanna see even game of pro vs mogo
Sincere [3k\]: isnt that moyo a little too big?
]
;B[gq]BL[332.599]
;W[hq]WL[641.856]C[Singer [10k\]: b is still ahead?
ahmadr [10k\]: The reason I say MoGo 'doesn't try to win by a large margin' is because i've lost against it a few times, as a 10k, by a 10-15 point margin, and then watched it defeat a 16k by the same margin, and then a 2k by the same margin.
pasky [1k\]: lemurov: that'd be kind of boring
Olmerek [12k?\]: I just joined. It is'n handy game, is it ?
ahmadr [10k\]: 12stones
Olmerek [12k?\]: wow
dejvo [10k\]: does MoGo use the time of the other player to "think"?
pasky [1k\]: olmerek: press the button with two left arrows :P
]
;B[gr]BL[312.485]C[Francisco [3d\]: mogo is winning
]
;W[gs]WL[640.493]C[ahmadr [10k\]: the real game comes next
lovebach [4d\]: B6 honte ? 
PowerP [3d\]: computers are weak : )
]
;B[er]BL[304.988]C[Francisco [3d\]: or else he will do s12
]
;W[fs]WL[639.153]C[kuikentje [5k\]: uhuh
]
;B[hs]BL[297.677]C[Sakae [-\]: B ahead I think...
jhouse [3k\]: If B keeps its moyo, this may be a close game
ketchup [6k\]: i dont understand thse last moves..
]
;W[is]WL[636.619]C[jhouse [3k\]: SE is useless.  It says upper left is black's
]
;B[es]BL[280.067]C[coolpapa [11k\]: SE is monte carlo-
]
;W[hs]WL[635.177]C[Kosai [2k\]: SE says B+60 with the upper-left right.
Fatality [7k\]: just cound the stones on the boar + prisoners to calculate the handi :D @ Olmerek
Francisco [3d\]: it*
certo [1k\]: SE is on mogo's team
Singer [10k\]: If black were lee sedol, it would be ;)
]
;B[dr]BL[273.18]C[coolpapa [11k\]: it picks a score randomly.
promon: ahmadr, i seem to have niticed that mogo tries to always win by 0.5 point on 9X9
]
;W[dq]WL[624.432]C[promon: ie, it fills in its own territory
]
;B[cr]BL[266.608]
;W[bq]WL[622.726]C[promon: until the margin of victory is just that
]
;B[cq]BL[260.133]C[promon: is that true?
BattousaiX [-\]: certo: programs have to stick together
]
;W[bp]WL[620.889]
;B[dn]BL[253.901]C[telchar [-\]: b6 is cool
]
;W[do]WL[618.376]
;B[br]BL[247.893]
;W[ar]WL[616.224]C[markboon [?\]: MoGo also thinks it lost
]
;B[em]BL[242.069]C[sixsix [-\]: that's still not "trying", it's just that it sees a few random games in which it plays stupid moves, so it fills in non-existent weaknesses
ahmadr [10k\]: :) I wouldn't know. But if in doing so it ends up shoring up theoretical cutting points and it doesn't lose the game as a result, i would imagine that it's a good thing to do, no?
]
;W[cn]WL[612.178]
;B[co]BL[236.375]
;W[cp]WL[610.841]C[sixsix [-\]: hehe what he said :p
og [9k\]: over
]
;B[qo]BL[230.596]
;W[ro]WL[609.055]C[SadShape [1k\]: black must think he is loosing
]
;B[rh]BL[225.222]C[Singer [10k\]: What is the theory behind the mogo algorithm?
]
;W[ne]WL[604.219]C[Feanor [2k\]: hehe
]
;B[le]BL[219.825]C[jhouse [3k\]: Singer, look up UCT
]
;W[of]WL[602.48]C[Fatality [7k\]: f16 h16 can live I think in this case
og [9k\]: singer: wikipedia monte carlo, as a start
]
;B[qi]BL[214.44]
;W[ng]WL[599.914]C[ketchup [6k\]: wow..
Nouli [-\]: cut first, never think
mlnmiles [1d\]: ...\]
kuikentje [5k\]: ...
PowerP [3d\]: gg
certo [1k\]: lol, so much for center
ahmadr [10k\]: Testing positions by trying thousands (or in this case 1.7million) playouts.
]
;B[mf]BL[209.383]C[ketchup [6k\]: what happened there?
]
;W[og]WL[598.754]C[moondancer: black is losing if they have komi
coolpapa [11k\]: The Universal Coeffient Theorem?
]
;B[mg]BL[204.469]
;W[hm]WL[596.581]C[cormorant [13k?\]: bye bye moyo
sigmundur [4k\]: monte carlo go theory (from google): http://www.ideanest.com/vegos/MonteCarloGo.pdf
ketchup [6k\]: handi games dont have komi..
]
;B[kk]BL[199.583]C[promon: maybe---but i wonder if the programmers intentionally wants to test how accurate the program is...
kuikentje [5k\]: these are 20 kyu mistakes
]
;W[gn]WL[593.325]
;B[hl]BL[194.943]
;W[po]WL[591.432]C[tsiki [1d\]: oh well, i guess the good game against Taranu was a fluke
]
;B[fb]BL[190.444]
;W[nb]WL[589.224]C[Sincere [3k\]: lol
cormorant [13k?\]: what game?
]
;B[la]BL[185.957]C[lemurov [-\]: f18 !!!!
runts [3d\]: whoaaa
patrickb [-\]: F18?
cormorant [13k?\]: 19x19?
certo [1k\]: f18???
]
;W[rk]WL[585.486]C[ahmadr [10k\]: Either that, or the style of this Korean pro is different
Kosai [2k\]: well, recall the time difference
]
;B[rj]BL[181.654]C[telchar [-\]: f18 = I win
]
;W[qk]WL[583.297]C[gandhi [-\]: 9x9 is a whole different story
]
;B[nh]BL[177.464]C[nasnad [1d?\]: it is strong at 9x9x
Feanor [2k\]: 9x9 can be almost bruteforced
]
;W[bj]WL[577.71]C[kuikentje [5k\]: they played both
NPcomplete [5k\]: but it had more thinking time against Taranu?
]
;B[kl]BL[173.329]C[gandhi [-\]: feanor, not brute forced
]
;W[mk]WL[574.785]C[kuikentje [5k\]: and no 9x9 can not be bruteforced at all
PowerP [3d\]: myung must be bored
]
;B[mn]BL[169.376]
;W[ln]WL[573.084]C[Francisco [3d\]: You should watch the next game
gandhi [-\]: 5x5 can't be brute forced
Kosai [2k\]: B wins this one, right?
]
;B[ks]BL[165.364]C[certo [1k\]: i need to write that f18 tesuji down somewhere to use in my games
kuikentje [5k\]: 81 possible moves on an empty board
]
;W[mj]WL[568.912]C[Francisco [3d\]: It will be more interesting than Catalin´s
cormorant [13k?\]: taranu was 9x9... weak
]
;B[mi]BL[161.552]C[Olmerek [12k?\]: next game ?
Kosai [2k\]: gandhi: It can and has been.
]
;W[pr]WL[567.08]
;B[bk]BL[157.675]C[Celila [-\]: this is just a test game --- but remember that the other pro game was on 9x9
sigmundur [4k\]: gandhi: I'm sure 5x5 can be brute-forced...
tsiki [1d\]: taranu was 19x19 on 9H too
markboon [?\]: Hmmm...
Kosai [2k\]: (5x5 is solved.)
gandhi [-\]: not brute forced, but read through
jhouse [3k\]: did mogo win this game?
SadShape [1k\]: Problem is the tree of possibility in 19*19, he is just infinite nore complex (really infinite more)
Zyphe [9k\]: @ Singer - http://www.lri.fr/~sebag/COURS/SG_Mogo.pdf
]
;W[ci]WL[554.099]C[Sincere [3k\]: how much handicap on 9x9?
gandhi [-\]: solved is different than brute forced
]
;B[di]BL[153.921]C[Sincere [3k\]: 2?
Kosai [2k\]: gandhi: It has been solved.  Every move is known.
markboon [?\]: I thought W would get further in the center
Feanor [2k\]: 7x7 is solved
markboon [?\]: this way W can lose
lemurov [-\]: pro can easy make life h16 f16 against such a crap
gandhi [-\]: 7x7?
gandhi [-\]: really, that's news to me
Elfwood [2k\]: mogo at 9x9 with 800 cores = pro?
Celila [-\]: 19x19 with 1h SD is going to follow .. but you can't expect mogo to play as well on 19x19 as it's playing on 9x9   -yet ;) -
gandhi [-\]: do you have a pointer?
puf [?\]: 7x7 is not really solved...
linca [?\]: 7x7 is not mathematically solved
TotoroShan [2d\]: really, 7x7 is solved ?
]
;W[da]WL[523.013]
;B[nj]BL[150.341]C[Francisco [3d\]: I am sure after these game w will be afraid
ahmadr [10k\]: no
jhouse [3k\]: 7x7 was "solved" by some dans
PowerP [3d\]: what is the handicap for the next game
]
;W[pn]WL[517.782]C[ahmadr [10k\]: 7x7 is the next size to solve
giygas [4k\]: lemurov, killing such attempts appears to be what mogo is best at
]
;B[gm]BL[146.917]C[Feanor [2k\]: I heard so some time ago
arpad [1d\]: looks like mogo wins this one
Francisco [3d\]: and he wont accept anything but 9h
jhouse [3k\]: they found the moves that lead to wins/ties for 7x7
ahmadr [10k\]: or - to brute force, not to solve my bad
linca [?\]: but an estimation of best strategy has been made
mcpudding [20k\]: 7x7=49
gandhi [-\]: 5x5 has been solved, but not brute forced
]
;W[sj]WL[501.163]C[certo [1k\]: 7x7 is solved weakly, not strong solved
ahmadr [10k\]: 5x5 is the biggest to be solved,
]
;B[gb]BL[143.497]C[lemurov [-\]: w's loosing
telchar [-\]: do you have the coeff% of victory?
DonkeyKong [11k\]: black wins?
promon: where can one read up on mogo a bit more, please?
]
;W[pq]WL[497.168]
;B[mm]BL[140.163]C[ahmadr [10k\]: and it is shown that white does not live anywhere
markboon [?\]: It's close
]
;W[ml]WL[492.798]C[Sakae [-\]: go go black!
]
;B[nl]BL[136.907]C[giygas [4k\]: promon, see user info of mogobot1
lemurov [-\]: should live at upper side
Francisco [3d\]: mogo is winning for sure
Radley [-\]: I think mogo is ahead
markboon [?\]: I think :)
Francisco [3d\]: g18
jhouse [3k\]: ahmadr, look up Sylvain Gelley's homepage
Kosai [2k\]: not close.  B+30, few points left.
]
;W[aj]WL[481.497]C[Zyphe [9k\]: isnt the biggest downfall of computer go on 19x19 is the inability to truely take into account the whole board and play accordingly?
]
;B[cl]BL[133.817]C[lemurov [-\]: i'm sure w can live there
jhouse [3k\]: Do you want to know algorithm or history?
epion003 [?\]: where do i download mogo plz?
jtn [6k\]: wow mogo one this one?
moondancer: if white woud capture the stones he can he would be winning
telchar [-\]: 0.5 game
SadShape [1k\]: mogo must be very good in yose
]
;W[qj]WL[472.639]C[amadis [2k\]: @gelly
]
;B[oh]BL[130.758]
;W[oe]WL[470.896]
;B[ri]BL[127.729]C[Francisco [3d\]: extremely good
]
;W[pl]WL[470.11]
;B[hn]BL[124.963]C[kgs9d [-\]: g18, new stong and mysterious shape
]
;W[go]WL[467.633]
;B[kp]BL[122.312]C[Francisco [3d\]: i learn from its yose
bearclaw: is mogo thinking when its not its turn to play?
]
;W[bm]WL[462.684]
;B[ak]BL[119.556]C[nasnad [1d?\]: mogo is very good at yose if it want to be
teytaud [-\]: bearclaw:yes
Candidate [2k?\]: if pro got all four corners, pro should resign. :/
jhouse [3k\]: SE says B+34
Singer [10k\]: Does anyone have a simplified, general statement of the algorithm that lasts about one sentence and not 13 pages? :P
]
;W[na]WL[454.173]C[patrickb [-\]: mogo thinking? :)
]
;B[js]BL[116.792]C[Sakae [-\]: mogo knows he's winning
nasnad [1d?\]: if it doesnt matter it will do alot of -1
trumpet [3k\]: bottie winning tis time
Sakae [-\]: I bet it
]
;W[ma]WL[445.765]C[amadis [2k\]: congrats sylvain (username casillux)
promon: thanks giygas
]
;B[lb]BL[114.27]
;W[ea]WL[444.02]
;B[fa]BL[111.809]C[Elandal [2k\]: Singer: "It's mathematical" :)
Sakae [-\]: I bet it'll make a counting misstake and lose with .5 instead
puf [?\]: singer: try to look it up from senseis library
Kosai [2k\]: Singer: It plays random moves many times over and evaluates their winning percentage.
]
;W[op]WL[430.243]
;B[ir]BL[109.345]C[ahmadr [10k\]: Mogo plays several playouts (in this version about 1.7million) per second for a local position somewhat randomly and then evaluates on percentages which is the best move.
]
;W[bs]WL[420.639]
;B[ab]BL[107.013]C[Exception [5k\]: a18 ?
]
;W[ba]WL[418.13]C[Derinaibo [5k?\]: pro lose((
]
;B[ac]BL[104.58]C[hannes101 [8k\]: m1 is a threat?
Sakae [-\]: Kosal that is incorrect
Exception [5k\]: ahh
]
;W[ae]WL[412.788]
;B[ch]BL[102.253]C[ahmadr [10k\]: Further, Mogo spends more time thinking about it toward the beginning and then progressively less toward the ending.
Kosai [2k\]: Sakae: Yes?
]
;W[af]WL[406.193]C[Sakae [-\]: that would be a very foolish way to make a bot
]
;B[fe]BL[100.006]
;W[bi]WL[401.99]C[ekku [-\]: how many moves deep is that?
]
;B[aa]BL[97.834]C[moondancer: Wan is not being smaet
]
;W[ad]WL[399.887]C[gandhi [-\]: ekkum all the way until the end
Hagios [4k\]: Sakae, that's how the Monte-carlo algorithm works.
Nouli [-\]: A 19 o//
Evaugh [4k\]: if B plays 30 more moves inside his moyo W might win :)
USGO15 [-\]: Bot went offline
kurosama [2d\]: 12 stones game ?
gandhi [-\]: yes
chrono3450 [1d\]: lo
ketchup [6k\]: lol
Nyanjilla [-\]: escaped???
ketchup [6k\]: bot crashed?
jbh17 [-\]: ekku: till a game if finished
giygas [4k\]: evaugh, nope, they're using chinese rules
trumpet [3k\]: b will fill until he wins by .5
Kosai [2k\]: Sakae: Do you actually have knowledge about monte carlo? 
ahmadr [10k\]: Finally, Mogo tries to make 'sound' plays at the cost of winning by a smaller margin rather than trying to win by a very large margin.
jtn [6k\]: damn escapers
progers [12k\]: bot escaper ;)
Sakae [-\]: and this bot uses monte carlo algorithim?
Evaugh [4k\]: ah ok
royalty [3d\]: :P
Kashuu [1k\]: admins ban the bot!! he escaped :D
masek [1d\]: Mogo Famous Escaper
Celila [-\]: yes sakae
masek [1d\]:  :[
Kosai [2k\]: Sakae: Yes.
Hagios [4k\]: Yes, mogo is montecarlo
masek [1d\]: Mogo Noris!
zpt [2d?\]: escaper, lol! 
Sakae [-\]: wow that is retarded..
Kosai [2k\]: Make a better one, then.
cormorant [13k?\]: it realized humans own it
trumpet [3k\]: Yeah, we should call TheMogo
lemurov [-\]: w+time
MoGoTiTan [-\]: GTP Engine for MoGoTiTan (black): MoGo version 3.0.0: I'll resign if you win and playing until you pass if I win. If you passed and I did not, it often means that the status of some stones are not clear enough for me (I want to be sure we will agree on dead stones). Clarify them. Maybe I am losing, but have not enough time to be sure I should resign. In this case play until the end :'( (very rare cases)
Sakae [-\]: if there's only 1 way of winning...
Hagios [4k\]: It's, to the best of my knowledge, the strongest go program so far :)
IanO: MoGo escaped to add 3000 more nodes to the network :)
]
;B[hm]BL[93.976]C[Nyanjilla [-\]: Kashuu---we don't boot for escaping
Sakae [-\]: it just doesn't work
cormorant [13k?\]: and cried home to momma
]
;W[sg]WL[392.024]
;B[sh]BL[91.856]C[markboon [?\]: b +10?
]
;W[sf]WL[390.554]
;B[si]BL[89.742]C[Kosai [2k\]: Sakae: You are obviously incorrect.
]
;W[sk]WL[389.219]
;B[ge]BL[87.862]C[royalty [3d\]: hah
Nouli [-\]: LOL
]
;W[ps]WL[384.47]C[Kosai [2k\]: It's the strongest program we've seen so far.
]
;B[oo]BL[86.027]
;W[on]WL[382.578]C[SadShape [1k\]: g15 say i win
]
;B[nm]BL[84.179]C[progers [12k\]: Sakae, the cost of creating an altgorithm to figure out the best plays before trying the randoms is supposed to be WAY more costly
]
;W[pp]WL[376.91]
;B[lk]BL[82.374]C[gandhi [-\]: sakae, for 9x9 it's very strong
]
;W[cs]WL[374.177]
;B[gp]BL[80.749]
;W[ds]WL[372.837]
;B[er]BL[79.142]C[Lifestream [-\]: about 11,5 for b
pasky [1k\]: isn't CrazyStone generally the strongest?
]
;W[bl]WL[368.136]
;B[cm]BL[77.335]
;W[al]WL[366.397]C[Sakae [-\]: yes, but...
]
;B[li]BL[75.741]C[jhouse [3k\]: Singer - sent you PM about MoGo algorithm.  Does that make sense?
amadis [2k\]: as i understand, nobody really knows why monte carlo works - it's all empirical
Sakae [-\]: still it's foolish to randomize the moves
tsiki [1d\]: CrazyStone is about 1 stone stronger than Mogo I believe
]
;W[pk]WL[359.079]
;B[nk]BL[74.046]
;W[es]WL[356.67]
;B[mp]BL[72.52]C[SunnyD [3d\]: B+7
]
;W[dn]WL[353.122]
;B[gd]BL[71.035]C[Kashuu [1k\]: hehehee
]
;W[jr]WL[348.9]
;B[he]BL[69.514]C[Nouli [-\]: hihi
amadis [2k\]: i agree with sakae, i doesn't seem like it should work - but it does
Kosai [2k\]: Sakae: You randomize which moves you choose to *evaluate*, not which moves you play.
]
;W[ir]WL[346.133]C[lemurov [-\]: who said mogo is good at yose?
]
;B[cj]BL[68.14]C[puf [?\]: b+4
GlebD [2d\]: loool
]
;W[pm]WL[344.17]C[Nouli [-\]: best yose ever seen
pasky [1k\]: sakae: yes, I'm *sure* you know very well what you are talking about
]
;B[rn]BL[66.55]C[USGO15 [-\]: Shouldn't it be B +0.5
royalty [3d\]: hah
]
;W[os]WL[342.286]
;B[rp]BL[64.992]C[ekku [-\]: progers, that's when statistics from thousands of pro games come into play
Sakae [-\]: yes I understand that
promon: will crazestone be in action at the Congress?
]
;W[nn]WL[336.677]C[Elfwood [2k\]: ah, black is doing the win by 0.5 dance
Kosai [2k\]: Sakae: Please learn more before forming foolish opinions.
royalty [3d\]: oh man, oh man
]
;B[sd]BL[63.477]C[IanO: now MoGo will lose on time making silly endgame moves :)
Sakae [-\]: it is foolish
certo [1k\]: mogo is yose master
royalty [3d\]: is this japanese rules?
]
;W[ol]WL[328.418]C[Astrae [3d\]: ...
gertzu [-\]: lol?
lukaszchol [13k?\]: ??
Lifestream [-\]: lol
SadShape [1k\]: lol o.5 win
]
;B[ls]BL[62.033]C[USGO15 [-\]: the pro is confused
Celila [-\]: he's waiting for pass 
lemurov [-\]: loool
markboon [?\]: Classic 1 point win
DonkeyKong [11k\]: ruining his win))))
]
;W[]WL[325.01]C[Yoan [10k\]: lol
]
;B[pi]BL[60.326]C[Celila [-\]: mogo doesn't pass first 
Yoan [10k\]: great!!
Matsuyama [-\]: chinese rules
cr9ru: woa lol
Kashuu [1k\]: haahha white cant loose !!! 
aminao: pass
Sakae [-\]: lets assume theres a case where only 1 move works for the opponent
]
;W[]WL[318.424]C[Kashuu [1k\]: he just has to keep playing
]
;B[nr]BL[58.612]C[roflwaffle [12k\]: yeh
Kashuu [1k\]: roflf
lemurov [-\]: lol
kgs9d [-\]: q11 o2 
cr9ru: omg lol
SpongeBob [5k\]: mogo rulez!
kgs9d [-\]: ..
certo [1k\]: he better not lose on time
blackrain [6k\]: wow
progers [12k\]: Eddu: that's very true, but does mogo use previous games or is it a pure playing algorithm?
Faint31k [1k\]: how many times these to gonna play >>
Sakae [-\]: the bot will find that some other move is better because they had better percentage..
Sakae [-\]: and it'll make it wrong
Celila [-\]: 1 more time, faint31k
]
;W[qn]WL[292.255]
;B[rm]BL[56.902]C[IanO: now the pro throws the computer off the stage :)
]
;W[so]WL[289.379]
;B[sp]BL[55.642]C[ekku [-\]: progers, don't know, prolly not.
kgs9d [-\]: o2 makes an eye though
USGO15 [-\]: Myungwan Kim just found out it is chinese rules
ketchup [6k\]: ??
Kashuu [1k\]: hahaha
chrono3450 [1d\]: lol
royalty [3d\]: usgo, hehe
Faint31k [1k\]: thx cellia
]
;W[rq]WL[273.079]
;B[ej]BL[54.292]C[SadShape [1k\]: o2 good move for mogo because it leads to a winning position in 100 % game
]
;W[sq]WL[271.734]C[lukaszchol [13k?\]: he'd won without this moves I think
]
;B[ni]BL[52.977]C[deft [4d\]: looks like B+3.5
jhouse [3k\]: pauses by pro = someone explaining why mogo is still playing :)
]
;W[rl]WL[268.672]C[Kashuu [1k\]: like i said before... processing power aint going to help computers beat human
]
;B[hc]BL[51.284]C[Pinguschaf [-\]: lol
]
;W[sm]WL[267.639]C[whatisgo [1k\]: time
kuikentje [5k\]: then why was he filling in dame already?
]
;B[mh]BL[48.978]
;W[sn]WL[266.947]C[og [9k\]: this will never end
]
;B[ic]BL[46.701]
;W[sc]WL[264.563]
;B[ie]BL[45.316]
;W[se]WL[263.593]
;B[qd]BL[42.887]C[SadShape [1k\]: pro just must pass
]
;W[bo]WL[262.071]C[royalty [3d\]: ufff
Pinguschaf [-\]: what is this?
]
;B[fc]BL[41.215]C[Tsuijin [1d\]: what is going on?
]
;W[dr]WL[260.582]C[Chaos00o [8k\]: LOL
kgs9d [-\]: !!
]
;B[kc]BL[39.509]C[og [9k\]: he has to pass
gertzu [-\]: LOL
]
;W[rd]WL[258.801]C[lambada [12k\]: ))))
jhouse [3k\]: chineese scoring
]
;B[rb]BL[37.087]C[AdrianG430 [12k\]: ah!!!
mlnmiles [1d\]: w wants to win by time
serimgasum [10k\]: loooooooooooooooooooooooool
og [9k\]: mogo is waiting for a pass, no?
Chaos00o [8k\]: oh my god, hes turned to 30th kyu
Tsuijin [1d\]: passing wars?
Articuno [-\]: lol
]
;W[qb]WL[255.445]C[Fatality [7k\]: *rpfö
Nouli [-\]: LOL
nachodude [3k\]: oo
]
;B[ra]BL[35.774]C[ketchup [6k\]: pro doesnt want to win..
Tsuijin [1d\]: until time over?
nouziller [2k\]: grazy bot
]
;W[qa]WL[252.499]C[ekku [-\]: kashuu, sure it is going to _help_
]
;B[ob]BL[34.185]
;W[sb]WL[251.435]C[SunnyD [3d\]: Pro wants time win
]
;B[oa]BL[32.959]C[chrono3450 [1d\]: omg look at his timer...
]
;W[sa]WL[250.57]C[Hagios [4k\]: Bot wants to lose on time
Articuno [-\]: he was winning
Celila [-\]: pro has to pass :/ 
]
;B[hj]BL[30.703]
;W[]WL[250.568]
;B[]BL[30.702]TW[aa][ca][oa][pa][ra][ab][ob][pb][rb][ac][bc][cc][bd][nd][pd][qd][sd][be][ag][ah][ai][ql][sl][am][rm][an][rn][ao][co][qo][ap][dp][rp][sp][aq][cq][br][cr][er][qr][rr][sr][as][qs][rs][ss]TB[ga][ha][ia][ja][ka][hb][ib][jb][gc][jc][fd][hd][id][kd][ee][je][ke][ff][gf][hf][if][jf][kf][lf][dg][fg][gg][ig][jg][kg][lg][qg][eh][fh][gh][hh][ih][jh][kh][lh][qh][ei][gi][hi][ii][ji][ki][oi][fj][gj][ij][kj][oj][dk][ek][gk][hk][ik][jk][fl][gl][il][jl][lq][nq][lr][ms]C[royalty [3d\]: the game wont end before the fat lady presses pass
Nouli [-\]: timesuji
Yoan [10k\]: so silly!!
Articuno [-\]: now hes going to los by 6-7 points
Francisco [3d\]: i would very much lke to see MyungWans face
Chaos00o [8k\]: omh
mlnmiles [1d\]: :D
pasky [1k\]: lag?
pasky [1k\]: ah, but on my side :)
Chaos00o [8k\]: mogo wiiiiiins
pasky [1k\]: \\o/
lemurov [-\]: )))
amadis [2k\]: next time less handi!!!
gertzu [-\]: wooohooo
AdrianG430 [12k\]: yeah!!!
fujichan [2k\]: ouah ? 
Celila [-\]: congrats mogo :)
royalty [3d\]: yaay.
Chaos00o [8k\]: XDwhat was this handy?
pasky [1k\]: let's settle at 11 stones ;)
Articuno [-\]: lol
chrono3450 [1d\]: about timw
NPcomplete [5k\]: well done MoGoBot!
master117 [6k\]: mogo mogo ^^
patrickb [-\]: Okay, now the real game at 11 stones?
ketchup [6k\]: 12h
amadis [2k\]: congrats casillux
lemurov [-\]: nice endgame
Hagios [4k\]: USGO, so will we see 12h for mogo for the real game?
weiqidevil [-\]: good game. 
Sakae [-\]: gj mogo½
Kashuu [1k\]: Myung should have won, if he let black play more inside his territory hehe :D
kuikentje [5k\]: hooray
ahmadr [10k\]: that was 12 stones
markboon [?\]: 11 or 12?
ahmadr [10k\]: 5 minutes
bugtaker [2d\]: handy 12...
BattousaiX [-\]: good game
cormorant [13k?\]: he really didnt know it was chinese rules?
Sakae [-\]: but your algorithim sucks!
GocchiSama [2k\]: 13 stones
Squirrel [-\]: haha, he must have been very surprised that this is not japanese rules
markboon [?\]: 11 was very one-sided
Aliens243 [9k?\]: by 0,5 pts
pasky [1k\]: kashuu: not with chinese counting
Celila [-\]: make a better one sakae :) 
kuikentje [5k\]: it does sakae, but it's not easy to improve it nevertheless
Sakae [-\]: I based a bot on that monte carlo
jhouse [3k\]: How many handicap for the next game?
Kosai [2k\]: and moreover, it's better than other algorithms we know of
Merlinor [9k?\]: BUT 12HC !!
Squirrel [-\]: he would have gotten win with japanese
eboesch [1k\]: Look, the algorithm is more involved than you can explain in a single sentence. I fyou want to know the details, look at the Mogo team's papers.
Sakae [-\]: but I didn't want to waste more than 5 minute son it...
Zyphe [9k\]: i think the real game can be played at 12 stones still
Kosai [2k\]: Sakae: Please be quiet.
Kashuu [1k\]: Pasky: black played inside white's territory where black did not have to respond, so even with chinese rules that -1
Sakae [-\]: so I didn't implent reading
lukaszchol [13k?\]: But without needles moves, it would be much better
Nyanjilla [-\]: nor did they, Sakae---that's hte point
Kashuu [1k\]: *where white did not have to respond i mean
Sakae [-\]: sigh randoming moves won't get better..
Zyphe [9k\]: white didnt know what rules it was and it was still very close
fanertygr: толи смазали,толи что то недосчитали
vatolkin2 [12k\]: ага
Sakae [-\]: then it's only about the computer
jhouse [3k\]: Kashuu, look up chineese rules.  Playing inside opponent's territory is free after dame are gone
Sakae [-\]: I must say I'm extremely disappointed in this bot
SunnyD [3d\]: jhouse, look up this game
Candidate [2k?\]: we noticed sakae. now, please...
giygas [4k\]: sakae, are you trolling? no one wants to hear you continuing that
pasky [1k\]: kashuu: ok, but black wouldn't play that if he couldn't afford it ;)
SadShape [1k\]: 12handi is what rank against a pro?
markboon [?\]: I'm disappointed too...
Sakae [-\]: are you trolling, nobody wants to hear you saying that either
patrickb [-\]: enouigh
NPcomplete [5k\]: actually i wouldn't do much better against an 8p with 12 handi
kuikentje [5k\]: I'm dissapointed, because I expected more
PowerP [3d\]: i cant imagine it more than 3k or 4k kgs
pasky [1k\]: when will next game start?
chrono3450 [1d\]: a 9p should give a 9d 3-4 handicap. so if you work down that way, it's 2d level
telchar [-\]: it's more than 3-4k kgs
kuikentje [5k\]: but you have to admit it has a basic sense of go
ketchup [6k\]: it doesnt work that way chrono3450
Chaos00o [8k\]: well, no computer will ever touch go. >>
chrono3450 [1d\]: no?
PowerP [3d\]: its nowhere near 2d
chrono3450 [1d\]: i'd imagine with more time
kuikentje [5k\]: even though it makes extremely odd mistakes =/
SadShape [1k\]: ok thanks
chrono3450 [1d\]: it could be
ketchup [6k\]: in blitz it is around 5k
amadis [2k\]: another with less handi! come on!
markboon [?\]: I don't believe 9P gives 3 handi to 9d
telchar [-\]: 1k-1d
SunnyD [3d\]: I can lose to mogo at 3 hrs
markboon [?\]: no way
Sakae [-\]: possible
markboon [?\]: no
Sakae [-\]: or hmm..
Sakae [-\]: nah
chrono3450 [1d\]: 9d and 9p isn't a 1 stone rank dif at each increase
chrono3450 [1d\]: that's impossible
Blitzin [-\]: what was this thing I just heard
Sakae [-\]: 9d is 1-2p?
Blitzin [-\]: "arguing over the internet is like running in the special olympics..." ;D
ketchup [6k\]: worse quote ever
Sakae [-\]: maybe 3-4 stones to 7d
SadShape [1k\]: 1p 9p is like 2 stones
amadis [2k\]:  theoretically, 9p=9d, though not on kgs or in aga
Sakae [-\]: what?
chrono3450 [1d\]: no...
pasky [1k\]: I want an automatical way to censor anyone who tries to compare pro and ama ranks in term of stones
chrono3450 [1d\]: you're talking about 9dp = 9dan pro
promon: when is the next game?
amadis [2k\]: use your mental censor pasky, it's the best
Sakae [-\]: sigh I'm so dissapoionted...
Bubarik [4k\]: 1p is not necessarily  < 9p
bugtaker [2d\]: please 13×13
puf [?\]: hmm...
Sakae [-\]: I can't even spell anymore..
jhouse [3k\]: sakae, why so disapointed?
Sakae [-\]: because of the algorithim..
NemoEimi [?\]: I think the only way to tell how strong it really is would only be to have many games without handicap against a variety of players in the low dan/high kyu range, high handicap games do not mean much in this respect since I think computers are not good at exploiting handicap at the moment
pasky [1k\]: amadis: I use that now and it's not performing satisfactorily :)
chrono3450 [1d\]: 1p and 9p are at maximum only 2-3 stones different
NemoEimi [?\]: and of course, having many games against many players is unfortunately impossible if it is running a cluster :)
Sakae [-\]: keep in mind that some people use stones better than others
telchar [-\]: nemoeimi> well mogobot1 is 2k here, and doesn't have 800 cores
pasky [1k\]: nemoeimi: and guess what! this happens as well
PowerP [3d\]: i do not believe there is anyway a 1p would lose to a 9p at 3 stones
Sakae [-\]: if you have weak fuseki but strong fighitng skills
Sakae [-\]: the stones will help you
Zyphe [9k\]: i havent seen a pro vs pro game with more then 2 stone handi
chrono3450 [1d\]: 2 stones then if you want
puf [?\]: sakae: I have played against mogo couple of times and I think that it plays quite well...
Steven1234 [5k\]: When will they play again?
PowerP [3d\]: they did 100 pro vs pro games at various handicaps for a book (3h to 9h) and none of the games were even close
epion003 [?\]: where do i get mogo plz anyone
Sakae [-\]: it uses the monte-carlo algorithim... I can't just let that be...
Zyphe [9k\]: most have no handi.. so doesnt that state how close a 1p is to a 9p?
pasky [1k\]: epion: on google
Zyphe [9k\]: it seems to be about winning percentage and experience
telchar [-\]: powerp> in the book, black was the strongest pro, no?
NemoEimi [?\]: yes the interesting question in my opinion would be how much it would gain in comparison to mogobot1 when running on hundreds of cores
PowerP [3d\]: it varied i think
PowerP [3d\]: i have the book but i dont remember
NemoEimi [?\]: in a few years, we'll know I guess ;)
pasky [1k\]: zyphe: it's important to realize that pro ranks do *not* denote strength but achievements
telchar [-\]: i suppose it's difficult to have the supercomputer at disposition all the time :)
Sakae [-\]: the ranks are somewhat correct
pasky [1k\]: so the whole question does not make sense and neither do people who keep discussing it over and over
Sakae [-\]: 9p is given to successful players
ketchup [6k\]: telchar, how many cores did this one have running?
telchar [-\]: ask the mogo team, but i think it's 800
Sakae [-\]: they are not given on random
Hu [3k\]: *** The offer for the big game is up ***
Sakae [-\]: USGO said 800
NemoEimi [?\]: Yes, the fact that access to supercomputing hardware is limited is unfortunate for all of us :)
kamic: Game coming up.
pasky [1k\]: sakae: but the success takes time to match strength and may not last
telchar [-\]: well of course sakae you were given the general principle of the algorithm, but the details are far more subtle
Sakae [-\]: due to the rest was "needed" for science
SadShape [1k\]: Do you Know when is the long game?
Hu [3k\]: 800 processors x quad core equals appr. 3000.
Hu [3k\]: See you in the other game.
Sakae [-\]: I thought it took a look at the thickness and all of that..
telchar [-\]: every specific code you could make about thickness has weaknesses
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